Crazy Horse Comments

2.2

3008 US Highway 70 E

Garner, North Carolina 27520

57,112 Views233 Comments  

Max  on Crazy Horse

posted on 24 April, 2014
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Hey Ron did you ever get anything "extra" from Lane? I'm trying to find her. I think she got married and quit dancing but is like to see her again

Brandon  on Crazy Horse

posted on 4 November, 2013
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I am looking for info on a dancer at the Crazy Horse in Garner NC. Her stripper name was "LANE" but her real name was Heather. She danced there from Nov. 2006 until March 2007. Lane has mental issues and we are currently trying to get her some help. If you have any info about her...be it insignificant...it could help out tremendously. All info will be kept in confidence, for this is entirely to get her the mental help she needs for her sake and for the sake of her two daughters

BEAR-AvHistory  on Crazy Horse

posted on 10 September, 2013
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Awesome club, friendly and service is good. Super time with Celeste, we got along great. Hope to see her soon again.

Amateur Night  on Crazy Horse

posted on 10 October, 2008
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The gold & silver club will be hosting an amateur night, sunday october 12th, from 8pm-1am. there will be a cash prize for the winner of the competition in addition, the dancers can keep what they make on stage. free amateur night shirts will be given out while supplies last. the gold & silver club 3121 franklin rd, roanoke, va. 540-982-5555

Lee @ ThirdEye  on Crazy Horse

posted on 5 February, 2008
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I represent ThirdEye Assurance, we offer live streaming video broadcast over the internet TV quality CCD cameras. True color, no hesitation. You choose the private room and the girl mobile or stationary cameras, we will broadcast live streaming video accessable to over 300 customer at the same time. To introduce our service, I'll offer 2 weeks free service to Club Whiplash - charge what you choose to your customers. Only the club owners can decide who can view the broadcast. Lee - owner of ThirdEye Assurance 919.633.9860

HEY Hint...hint  on Crazy Horse

posted on 25 January, 2008
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How do you know Jerry told the girls to clean up their lockers? Was it clean up or clean out? Inquiring people want to know.

Re Henry  on Crazy Horse

posted on 25 January, 2008
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and all the "theplatinumnightclub" bullshit. Do you think we cant tell a real review from a commercial? Pretty pathetic when you feel the need to compete with a club that burned down a month ago. Your club sucks, and of course, that is the only reason it is still open.

doggydaddy  on Crazy Horse

posted on 22 January, 2008
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It seems most have gone to Pure Gold in Cary.

Hint....hint  on Crazy Horse

posted on 19 January, 2008
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Well Jerry told the girls on Saturday to clean up their lockers, so SOMEBODY must have suspected something..... :-)

satniteman  on Crazy Horse

posted on 15 January, 2008
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The fire dept. smelled gas....I wonder.

Curious  on Crazy Horse

posted on 12 January, 2008
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So are they going to rebuild this club or is it gone forever?? Where did all the girls go to work now??

THEEPIZZAGOD  on Crazy Horse

posted on 7 January, 2008
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I am sorry to hear the news about the fire. So many good times I remember there. Can't wait to see the new place and start building those new memories.

matrix  on Crazy Horse

posted on 6 January, 2008
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my prayers are with you

dancer  on Crazy Horse

posted on 27 September, 2007
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what are house fees here? per dance fees? do you have to sell t-shirts?

Janine  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 September, 2007
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Janine was beautiful last night. Great staff but the regular girls are just regular girls.

michelin  on Crazy Horse

posted on 4 August, 2007
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What happened to this place? We went last night and were shocked at how lame it was.

Ron  on Crazy Horse

posted on 15 May, 2007
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Is Star still working there? If so what nights does she work?

brianna  on Crazy Horse

posted on 4 February, 2007
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hey do any clubs here in myrtle beach hire beautiful full figured women???

From Durham  on Crazy Horse

posted on 30 January, 2007
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Is this club worth the drive from Durham? What's the best night during the week?

Hard Rock  on Crazy Horse

posted on 28 January, 2007
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Great club. I used to go to G-ville until the locals got to be to strict. There are some great girls here. India and Amber are two of the best. I've enjoyed the dances that I've had. They are very nice in everyway.

JT  on Crazy Horse

posted on 25 January, 2007
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Who gives the best BJ in the VIP? How much will it set me back?

smitty  on Crazy Horse

posted on 20 January, 2007
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I was there with a few friends tonite, and it was awesome! will def be back for a bachelor party in the future.

Ron  on Crazy Horse

posted on 19 January, 2007
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I used to be a regular, several years ago, but moved out of the area. I have just been back a few times in the last month or so. Star is my favorite dancer. She has a great little body and a great personality. The dancers there are all types, so you should be able to find one that appeals you. I have not gotten dances from many of the other dancers. Carmen, Lane and Charlie are great dancers, too.

chapel hill player  on Crazy Horse

posted on 17 July, 2006
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hey im looking for a stripper named kylee that used to work here....i used to be her bf....would love to see her again...if she posts on this board or someone knows her on here let her know, she will know who i am....

Help?  on Crazy Horse

posted on 15 June, 2006
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May come in on a Saturday when they open. Can anyone tell who gives the best couch dance?

tattlover  on Crazy Horse

posted on 1 June, 2006
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Any tattooed hotties here? I like girls with tats, and am really partial to licking a tattood tit

cust  on Crazy Horse

posted on 30 May, 2006
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i was n nashville meet a sum dancers from north car. just wondering if this is the club they work at?

Ashlee  on Crazy Horse

posted on 9 May, 2006
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This club is way over priced, 12 bucks to get in, even for girls. Got in and there were only 7 girls there. None of them came to our table even though we had plenty of money. Had to approach the only very hot girl there to get a dance from her. Wasn't willing to let me touch her at all, not even her hips (I'ma woman for crying out loud not a rapist). Lap dances not worth the $30, no eye contact and no thanks.

fucked up  on Crazy Horse

posted on 23 April, 2006
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i think it is so fucked up that a bunch of girls need a male escort to go into the club. My friends and i had a lot of money to be spent and we drove 45 minutes to get there and were turned away at the door because we didn't have a male with us. We are all from out of state and dont really know males down here and arent trying to meet any. We were just trying to have a good time and your policies are a fucken joke! And it's pretty ignorant to say that it's because you dont want girls meeting mexicans.....prejudice fucks. Boo to your club.

papabear  on Crazy Horse

posted on 1 April, 2006
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I love babybear (nh), she is the most beautiful woman i have ever seen, and she loves me! HAHA yall cant have her.

4a2a0b  on Crazy Horse

posted on 30 March, 2006
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i love this club, neveah was the sexiest little thing in the world. She was th best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom  on Crazy Horse

posted on 13 March, 2006
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was I surprised to go to what I once knew as Dockside Dolls and find some up setting changes. They should have called it Pure Gold 2. After all isn't that what J Jr is trying to make it? good luck with that one. That is neither here nore there. I want to know what happen to all my good girls? I know I havent been in for a year or two (more like 3) but damn..... where are they? I guess it will be even longer before I go buck unless they get my girls back....... Somer, Desi, Hunter, Jazz...... where are you?

david  on Crazy Horse

posted on 17 January, 2006
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I was looking for a dancer named Somer. She danced here years ago back when it was Dockside Dolls. She also had a stage name of Sterling sometimes. She was about 5' 9" with red hair. just an old friend wanting to say hello. If anyone knows where she is now that would be great.

FYI  on Crazy Horse

posted on 11 January, 2006
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Corrie is mad? Stop posting this guy Ray it is getting old and this is for posting about club stuff! Corrie if you have a beef with Ray then post somewhere else please? The same goes for Ray!

FYI  on Crazy Horse

posted on 7 January, 2006
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Grow Up Ray!! Your not in highschool anymore!!

Business man NOT!  on Crazy Horse

posted on 29 December, 2005
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This club is full of skanky whores! like Cory Lynn Bass

Business Man  on Crazy Horse

posted on 13 December, 2005
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I checked this club out and it is pretty cool. The girls were better than I expected as well as the service was good. I had a great time in there. I will be back.

Big  on Crazy Horse

posted on 18 August, 2005
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I haven't been there since it was the Dockside, They have remodled, it looks nice, I went Saturday night, it was a packed house, Everyone was up beat and happy. (Except my barmaid, who was not happy but did not ever let my beers get cold or empty)

always_looking  on Crazy Horse

posted on 19 June, 2005
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Guys, Been there last night. Had a great night with two girls: brunette names Jazmine and Blonde named Jessey. jazmine was really good. She is a good conversationalist and an awesome dancer. She does grind u hard. Jesse is good but not as great a dancer. There is another blonde called Brianna who is good too. This is one if the best clubs - though teh dancing is slower thna other clubs I have seen. Its a good place for real stripping fun and nothing more

loking4U  on Crazy Horse

posted on 17 June, 2005
This comment was posted anonymously

I was there about a month ago and seen a thin brunette called Maria. She was realy hot and dance was awesome. Does anyone know if she is till owrking here since I am coming back to raleigh for a business trip again. I would love to meet this swet girl. If i cal teh club management, they say its against rules to tell if a girl is working - thats strange Please post a message if she is still working

nc_fun_guy  on Crazy Horse

posted on 12 June, 2005
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Have been to this club on sunday night on a friends, reco. It was pretty good. There is a russian blonde called Melena. She is a sweet girl though not agreat dancer. You really enjoy ur converstaion with her. Most gilrs are in the 6-7 range

For your info---  on Crazy Horse

posted on 11 May, 2005
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to the person that wanted to know why they renamed a "hole in the wall club" the crazy horse, well it just so happens the same people own this club as well as the one in myrtle beach. So maybe before you make comments or ask questions, you should do some research on the subject.

Closed?  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 February, 2005
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Did this place get closed down?

player  on Crazy Horse

posted on 18 February, 2005
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does anyone know what happened to Kylee and Kyra?

123  on Crazy Horse

posted on 12 February, 2005
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Rhonda works at Secrets in Fayetteville

To "Customer"  on Crazy Horse

posted on 8 February, 2005
This comment was posted anonymously

I wish that you would re-read your comment. Can you honestly say that it makes any sense? If you can't read what you type yourself, how in the h**l are any of us supposed to understand it? Oh, btw why in the world did they change this place to the Crazy Horse? Naming little hole-in-the-wall bars the Crazy Horse, is going to end up making the original Crazy Horse bars look bad. (the one in Myrtle Beach, and also the Crazy Horse too in Vegas, for example)

Looking For  on Crazy Horse

posted on 11 January, 2005
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Does anyone what happened to a cute blonde named Rhonda that used to dance here?

Former dancer  on Crazy Horse

posted on 7 January, 2005
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I'm looking for a former friend of mine named Shannon - does anyone know what happened to her?

A fan  on Crazy Horse

posted on 4 January, 2005
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Does anyone know if a cute asian dancer (forgot her name) still works here??

customer  on Crazy Horse

posted on 25 December, 2004
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i came by on the 23rd and it was happen alot of people and good looking girl. there is a new girl and she is form fayetteville she gives good lap dance. i set and talked to her for a while she is so nice if i was to come back it wood be to she her.

yuck  on Crazy Horse

posted on 22 December, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

ok, the last person obviously works at the club. I went in tonight at about 7 pm and stayed until 8:15 pm. there were about 10 women there. I hate to say this , but 7 of the ten I would have to rate below 5. the other 3 were maybe an 8, a 7, and a 6. they got rid of all the lap dance rooms. they still had some of the booths on one wall, but I did not see anyone use them. I would not have minded a dance from the 8. I had $300 in my pocket, but no one even approached me once in 75 minutes. clubs should have some sort of system where you can let a dancer know you want her to come over...and maybe let some know you DON'T want them to come over.

brent sienna  on Crazy Horse

posted on 3 December, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

I'm not sure what it was like before, but i think it is great now!! The new DJ is great- sure he talks a lot, but he keeps the crowd excited - and we aren't there for the music, we are there to interact with the girls. Eve and "V" are fun women to hangout with and they both give a great lap dance! If either of them is on stage, get your dollar bills, you WANT to be in the pit!!

crazy horse?  on Crazy Horse

posted on 26 November, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

I drove by this place this evening and saw that the name has changed. Has anyone been to it yet under the new management? I bet it has tamed down

Jeff  on Crazy Horse

posted on 23 November, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Bethany actually quit dancing all together and is the manager at a local department store in the womens dept. She no longer is part of this lifestyle and she seems very happy to be free of it. She has gone back to school and is currently seeking a 4 year degree in business managment! GO BETHANY! Also she looked very good, gained weight and grew her short hair out. Ron, I will tell her you asked about her!

Ron  on Crazy Horse

posted on 31 October, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Is Bethany still dancing at Dockside?

Rob Z.  on Crazy Horse

posted on 23 August, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Wow! is this the same club? I didn't recognize anyone. The bartender with the short hair was a bitch. There are no classy girls (cept jordan and lisa and grace, IF they are still there) The dj rambles, the other guy is bettter. And WHEN will they ever stop harassing US and the gals with those damn promos? Mgt will make$$ for a little while, but dockside is too close to JOHNSTON countyl Little devils, it will come back and bite em in the ass-no decent gal willl stay

D Train  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 August, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Has Traci moved to another club?

Shari  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 August, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

This club has changed for the worse. Tracy and Monica are gone. They fired Jason (dj). Some of the better dancers have fled- mainly by veubg frustrated by 'pure gold's' intervention. What a loss

Shari  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 August, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

This club has sadly been taken over by "pure gold" management. All of the good dancers ( well not ALL!)have left. Tracy and Monica have fled. Jason has been fired. What is the deal? Dockside SUX

to rambling man  on Crazy Horse

posted on 18 August, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

I posted where the ceterfold was here but the web site deleted my comment. Go to the first page and above the mission statement; click on "Click Here To See Last Centerfold Winner" Tracie is so hot but she doesn't work ther anymore.

NudeOrNotNude???  on Crazy Horse

posted on 1 June, 2004
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I read on the pure gold comments page that dockside had gone nude, and someone on this page said it had gone nude, is it or isnt it? Also from reading the posts their seem to be two or three redheads working here, nothing prettier to me than a little red landing strip, if it is nude I will have to make a visit.

To EyeCandy  on Crazy Horse

posted on 23 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Monday and Tuesday's are good afternoons for lots of good dancers. The only two for ones I have seen are for the Tshirts they do every night.

EyeCandyForMe  on Crazy Horse

posted on 23 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

What are the best days to come in early during the week, afternoons when there are still enough dancers to make it worth a visit. Most of the girls natural or fake, tattoos I dont mind a bit but I dont care for plastic. Do they do two for ones any specific night of the week or just sporadically?

no sense  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 May, 2004
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this reply does not make sense. I was trying to find out when erin was going to be working

New Feature  on Crazy Horse

posted on 20 May, 2004
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Every Thursday night see your favorite girl and another dancer on stage fighting each other in pudding..... Have a bike? Drive it in for a special treat. And YES Erin we know you are coming in tonight and we can hardly wait.... There are a few girls here who really want to see you. Talk at ya later!

erin????  on Crazy Horse

posted on 18 May, 2004
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will be there thursday night. anyone know if erin will be working? she was amazing last time I was there.

To Jim:  on Crazy Horse

posted on 17 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

If you get the right girl you get more than what you listed, try for Bethany she is pretty and does a lot of grinding and touching as well as letting you touch, and taste! She is here on Tues, Wend and Fridays.

jimdandy  on Crazy Horse

posted on 17 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

How are the lap dances here in general. I like alot of grinding and touching... breathing in the ear etc... let me know!

Blazefan  on Crazy Horse

posted on 15 May, 2004
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Does anyone know where Blaze went to?

Dolly  on Crazy Horse

posted on 14 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Most of the girls here are not from Garner and were born and rasied in other areas. Also this club has the best entertainment anywhere in NC. 40 + showgirls a night, cheap drinks and great service including valet services. Blink 182 thinks its a great club, not in a gang area like the Durham clubs, not in a danger zone like downtown raleigh and the $300.00 bottles of champagne we bought went fast. Very classy!

to cali-  on Crazy Horse

posted on 10 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

When you were there the only redneck in the place was prob. you... This is a grea tclub where the girls are down to earth and don't hassle you for your money. Lots of Beautiful women work here!! So if you want a good time in a great place come out!!

cali  on Crazy Horse

posted on 6 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

cheap redneck trash just like garner. save your money. try going to downtown raleigh, auro or office, find some free broads to take home. or hit up sullivans.

Z.  on Crazy Horse

posted on 6 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Sounds as if you are talking about either who used to be Bethany, I wont reveal her new stage name you will just have to come out and find out or Miss Grace. They both have short red hair and both give a great stage performance as do all the ladies here. One thing I can say for this club is All the girls here have great bodies and can dance.

Daniel  on Crazy Horse

posted on 4 May, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Club has really picked up and the parking lot is packed nightly. Lots of new faces and the dancers are all 8-10's. Lots of action in the vip area and this club gives more than any I have been to in the area as far as getting a lot in the couch room. Who is the new short haired girl? Anyone know her name... She is small, dark red hair and does a lot on stage such as having one leg on the floor while the other is way up the pole. She worked Sunday and was quite a busy bee.

ThamusT  on Crazy Horse

posted on 30 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Does Rusty still work here? Anybody know?

Car Show  on Crazy Horse

posted on 28 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Sunday May2 we are having another Car show at Dockside.

hey  on Crazy Horse

posted on 27 April, 2004
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hey everybody!! love the club

psychiatrist  on Crazy Horse

posted on 25 April, 2004
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To the last poster: Do you speak fluent dyslexic?

ok ok grammar police  on Crazy Horse

posted on 24 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

so I typed too fast and made a lot of mistakes. you still get the point.

hi  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 April, 2004
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anyone know if erin will be working this thursday evening? I will be coming through town about 6:30 and would love to have a few dances with her.

need  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

this is a helpful suggestion. sometimes my enjoyment of the dance is hampered by concern that they may bite. but I like it when they get close and even purr in my ear or whatever. I just don't like the biting. I also thought if I asked them not to do that that they would back off in general

Z  on Crazy Horse

posted on 21 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

To need, The polite thing would be to tell the dancer that you do not want to go home to your wife or girlfriend with any marks on you. That way they will not take it personal even if it is not the truth. And I am prob. the one that bit you on the ear( i have a bad habbit of doing that without realizing it). And what you said in your statement does make since and I never thought about it the way you explained things. So from now on there will be no more bits............ Sorry if it was me...

clarification  on Crazy Horse

posted on 20 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

I did not mean to imply that dancers are more likely to have a communicable illness. I am sure they are no more likely that the patrons or anyone else in the general population. I just mean that I dont want someone biting me..

need  on Crazy Horse

posted on 20 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

is there a polite way to let a dancer know up front that you do not want them to bite your ear or anyplace else? I would think it was sort of sexy, but am not interested in getting a dizeeez if they happen to break the skin. the bad part is that the women who are likely to bite maybe the most exciting dancers in the house. I would just rather see the rest of their act minus the teeth.

Andrea  on Crazy Horse

posted on 14 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

No, Dockside is not nude, none of the girls give head and there is no Bethany working in this club. All the girls are more than Hot, and they all give great dances without resorting to doing those vile things that some other clubs do for cash. All the girls here have too much class for those extras every one keeps trying to say they do, look at these girls, they get money just for smiling!

FYI  on Crazy Horse

posted on 12 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Teresa has been at Thee Dollhouse for over 9 months and we have never heard of any kind of arrest. If you don't want this site bethanyed to death then don't be the very ones to keep talking about the poor girl. And by the way Bethany doesn't go by bethany here any more. So no one besides messed up strippers and a handfull of customers who read this will be able to put her with what they read here. Guess your plans are foiled again aren't they retards?

na  on Crazy Horse

posted on 11 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

table dances are $10 and private couch dances are $30

BJ  on Crazy Horse

posted on 10 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

How much are table dances and how much are couch dances?

GUESS WHAT  on Crazy Horse

posted on 9 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Mr slick has been going into other clubs review board and posting bashing messages. Lets all give him a big round of applause for being so informative about the safety of the clubs!! thanks slick if it wasn't for your information, ijust might have found my self in a big ole mess... yea slick (being fecisious

ZoeB.  on Crazy Horse

posted on 9 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Rick you may have worked with her at another club. That would be more believable. The only saftey issue here anyone needs to worry about is that the great women here don't send you home broke. And rick, you need not to name yourself after something you hear on TV, Slick Rick was the nickname for Rick James who was a crack head failure to the music industry. well maybe you did name yourself right come to think of it.

Bethany  on Crazy Horse

posted on 8 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Yes Jack, I have gained some weight about 8 lbs to be exact. I weighed 110 in January I weigh 118 now. I changed my haircolor I like it better dark, it's hard to wear certain colors when you have red hair, like pink for example. I really do appreciate your comments good or bad about me. I welcome any and all questions you may have about me. I am giving away my computer to my needy neighbor on Monday and will not have a way to read this anymore. Goodbye and take care!

Rain  on Crazy Horse

posted on 8 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Brad, what exactly did you mean? I think she was just making a statement that she had rather be known as a caring human than a walking set of breast. And answering fat boys question as to why she no longer has her groups or pics of herself out. Not seeking anyones aproval or validation just answering questions that were about her and minding her own business. Something you would do well to learn.

Slick Rick  on Crazy Horse

posted on 8 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

I'm glad some guys like your personality. I have meet you at a different club and you tried so hard to get me to say yes to a dance but you just weren't my type.

brad  on Crazy Horse

posted on 7 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

It seems her need for validation has only changed in form, but certainly not lessened one iota.

Mercedes  on Crazy Horse

posted on 7 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Rick I am sure Bethany is so dissapointed at not being your Fantasy lol!

Bethany  on Crazy Horse

posted on 7 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Thank you Slick Rick! These days I had rather focus on my inner beauty, strength and wisdom than to worry about my outward self. Beauty is only skin deep, I had rather be known as someone who is loving, caring and considerate of others than a beautiful face and body that will age and fade in time. Most men I have met say I may not be as pretty as some of the girls here but my wonderful personality stands out in this club. To me that is more important than hearing how my body turns them on!

Slick Rick  on Crazy Horse

posted on 6 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Bethany glad you don't need people to tell you that your pretty because I don't think you look that good. Not saying your ugly but your not my fantasy. I could write more about the real Bethany but I won't.

WhereisShe  on Crazy Horse

posted on 6 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

Club has a lot of new faces, they have added more women of color. I am white but enjoy women of color. I am yet to see any fat white or black girls here. All these girls are fit, toned and ready to please. Anyone happen to know why there are no pics anywhere on the internet of Bethany? No groups, no site, no way to contact her. Has she quit dancing and moved on to better things? If so, good luck you are a real sweetheart and you will be missed by everyone.

Rather Not Tell You  on Crazy Horse

posted on 6 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

What the dancers make is not something that needs to be known here, if you want to know what a dancer makes come to the club and watch one in action, it isn't hard to figure out. Vips are $30.00 a piece and most girls average about 2-4 every time they go into the couch room. They work 8 hrs. a night. Most girls will not tell you how much they make, it is quite frankly, forgive me here... None of your business! Sorry, just being honest here!

to yes  on Crazy Horse

posted on 6 April, 2004
This comment was posted anonymously

so, please tell us how much a good dancer can make in a year. the nightly numbers are interesting, but dont give the real picture of what matters

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